Airsoft Canada
https://www.replicaairguns.ca/airsoft

Go Back   Airsoft Canada > Discussion > Tactics, Techniques and Procedures
Home Forums Register Gallery FAQ Calendar
Retailers Community News/Info International Retailers IRC Today's Posts

Rifle holding

:

Tactics, Techniques and Procedures

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 17th, 2010, 13:00   #1
wind953
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Vancouver, BC
Rifle holding

Since this is milsim I'm going to talk about this as if we are handling R/S with real recoil.
What is the real correct way to hold a rifle?

I know that the buttstock needs to be completely up against the shoulder to absorb as much recoil as possible; can't have sections of the buttstock not in contact with the shoulder.
Here is what I'm confused about. This is about the main trigger arm, not the support arm. I see a lot of people point their arm out to the side, and then bend the elbow bringing the forearm in and grab the handgrip. So that the elbow is always poking out to the side.
I also see people (this is what I use) tuck their whole arm in close to the body, so that it looks like they are shrugging their shoulder. Elbow is still bent obviously, but it's up and against the side of the body instead of poking out to the side.
I find that this way it's easier to place your cheek near the cheek rest on the buttstock, since you are already minimizing the distance between your neck and the shoulder (which is approximately where the gun is aligned to, with the buttstock against the shoulder).
The first way feels more awkward, since it seems you have to crank your neck towards the buttstock, so you end up with a slant neck and not looking through the sights upright.

Which one do you guys use and which is the correct way?
wind953 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2010, 13:05   #2
Donster
 
Donster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: GTA
the proper way (read: the way i was taught) is to keep your elbow in. minimizes your target and keeps your profile as small as possible.

remember the butt of the gun is not technically on your shoulder, but rather on the space between your shoulder and the edge of your pectoral. i think its call the nook of the shoulder or something, i dunno.

Either way, elbow in and when sighting down your gun, dont bring your head to your gun, but rather your gun to your head and DONT crane your neck to the side, but rather keep it straight.

Bring the gun up to your eye level and align the scope and gun with your eye.

hope that helps.

(for all your Gun Nazis, if i got something wrong, please correct me )
Donster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2010, 13:24   #3
wind953
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Vancouver, BC
Ahh yes the space between the shoulder thing is what I really meant. I just don't really know what the term for it is either..haha.

And yeah the cranking neck thing just seems so unnatural, yet I see a lot of people do it.

I've also heard that when you are moving while aiming down the sights (this applies to pistols as well), when you turn, never turn with your arms first...in other words never try to move your sights by using your arms, always use your footwork and the rest of your body to bring the new target to your sights. The whole aiming apparatus in the upper body should not move at all.
What if you need to scan around quickly for situational awareness? Surely it takes less work and time to turn your head than turning your whole body? That would momentarily break your aiming setup, but if you are making sure to bring your sights to your eyes instead of your eyes to your sights (like you say), it should take minimal work to aim down the sights again?

Is torso movement allowed? It would take less time to switch the target if you turn with your torso as well, instead of just relying on your feet, right? Maybe torso is not the right part. I think I mean turning slightly at the waist...
wind953 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2010, 13:32   #4
m102404
Tys
 
m102404's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Toronto
Regardless of sticking your elbow out or not...the buttstock still sits in the "pocket" of your shoulder. It doesn't move around depending if you stick your elbow out or not. Or at least it shouldn't.

Your head should be canted naturally (bit forward, bit to the side), not "flopped over" such that your neck feels strained. Your cheek should be on the stock, pretty much so your cheeck bone is sitting on the top of the stock (not quite but that's close). If your neck feels strained you're probably standing too "square" to your target, or your sights are set way too low for your physique. Raise the rifle a bit, turn in a bit more and you should notice that your head straightens up a bit.

Your weak shoulder should be forward of your strong shoulder...otherwise it's extremely hard to hold a rifle (your support arm just isn't that much longer ). Your feet will pretty much mirror what your shoulders are doing.

When you shoulder the rifle, if you find:
- that you have to reach excessively to support the rifle...try turning your body a bit more, and/or shorten the buttstock (either collapse the buttstock or get a shorter one).
- that your strong hand has to reach uncomfortably to take a grip (not strong grip, but natural hold) of the rifle and reach the trigger...collapse the buttstock or get a shorter one.
- that your neck is strained to see the sights that are "too low"...get risers to raise the sights, higher mounts to raise the sights, adjust the buttstock such that the entire rifle is raised higher.

NOTE:...for real steel you would not just simply place the "toe" of the buttplate higher on your shoulder as this would really start to hurt with rounds of significant recoil (or just snap your head back as the rifle slips off your shoulder)...you would position it such that there was as much contact between the buttplate and the "pocket" of your shoulder as possible. However, for airsoft...you can cheat like that...just don't do it with heavy recoiling real steel. Note the pic of the musket for an extreme example. The butt plate is going to go fully in the pocket...but the line of the sights is right up at eye level. There's a lot of "drop" to the buttstock of this rifle...had to do it since there was much of any sights on it.


The difference between sticking your elbow out or in is the shift/difference it makes to your center of gravity. If you keep your elbow in you have less "overhanging" weight, which adds to wobbling/sighting errors. Take a look at olympic/formal target shooters...their elbows are in as tight as they can get them to their core. They arch their backs to get the center of gravity over their hips...again minimizing and swaying.

That's formal shooting. For shooting moving targets where your body is rotating to lead the target a lot of people find it easier to "open up" a bit to gain a bit of balance/control when they're moving.

It's just a toy...but this figure actually has a very good shooting stance.





Shooting in sitting/kneeling is kind of similar to standing, but everyones body folds up a little different.

Shooting prone is totally different.

If you need help with it, it's best to do a bit of reading and then get someone at the next game to show you and correct your posture.

Note in the following pic how high the sights are on this rifle...lends itself to a very comfortable heads up position (his chin is almost on the stock pipe)...but there's a bit differential between the line of aim and the ballistic path of the bullet.


More "weight forward"...leaning a bit forward into the shot is good for real steel...it also rotates the buttstock up around the shoulder a bit to shorten the difference between the shoulder and eyeball position.


There's the "classic rifleman" stance.

Last edited by m102404; February 17th, 2010 at 13:47..
m102404 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2010, 13:44   #5
wind953
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Vancouver, BC
Oh cool, a lot of info

What about feet placing while still? From the toy it looks like he is turning his waist a little to the right, placing his toes of his forward leg a little perpendicular to his body.
I also read that the correct way to move your feet while moving and aiming is to follow the heel-toe, heel-toe pattern of movement.
wind953 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2010, 13:45   #6
Blackthorne
A Total Bastard
 
Blackthorne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Consecon, Ontario
Send a message via Skype™ to Blackthorne
Quote:
Originally Posted by wind953 View Post
What if you need to scan around quickly for situational awareness? Surely it takes less work and time to turn your head than turning your whole body? That would momentarily break your aiming setup, but if you are making sure to bring your sights to your eyes instead of your eyes to your sights (like you say), it should take minimal work to aim down the sights again?

Is torso movement allowed? It would take less time to switch the target if you turn with your torso as well, instead of just relying on your feet, right? Maybe torso is not the right part. I think I mean turning slightly at the waist...
Google "Low Ready-High Ready"

Quote:
Originally Posted by m102404 View Post
If your neck feels strained you're probably standing too "square" to your target, or your sights are set way too low for your physique. Raise the rifle a bit, turn in a bit more and you should notice that your head straightens up a bit.

Your weak shoulder should be forward of your strong shoulder...otherwise it's extremely hard to hold a rifle (your support arm just isn't that much longer ). Your feet will pretty much mirror what your shoulders are doing.
That works, but if you have armor on, you are turning it away from the threat. Nothing is written in stone but you should be facing the target as squarely as possible. RS here of course...AS makes no difference,



Quote:
Originally Posted by m102404 View Post
NOTE:...for real steel you would not just simply place the "toe" of the buttplate higher on your shoulder as this would really start to hurt with rounds of significant recoil (or just snap your head back as the rifle slips off your shoulder)...you would position it such that there was as much contact between the buttplate and the "pocket" of your shoulder as possible. However, for airsoft...you can cheat like that...just don't do it with heavy recoiling real steel.
I ride my stocks high all the time, and I shoot 7.62. Keeping in mind most plate have cuts to improve traction, and you typically have a few layers of something on for tactical,/protection purposes. Recoil shouldn't be a problem.

There are a few schools of thought. Do allot of research and find outwhat works for you. If you intend to take it into the RS arena however, try and stick with one doctrine and really own it. As long as you are getting rounds on target, in a realistic training environment.
__________________
VINCITE OMNIMODO
Blackthorne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2010, 13:51   #7
m102404
Tys
 
m102404's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Toronto
Good points...I was really thinking more of hunting when I wrote that.

I had a 300win mag slip off my shoulder once when we were goofing around...the whiplash and scope flying at me was not nice...do not want again.

If someone doesn't know how to hold a rifle in the first place...a conventional approach might be best to start with.
m102404 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2010, 14:37   #8
ThunderCactus
Not Eye Safe, Pretty Boy Maximus on the field take his picture!
 
ThunderCactus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
shoulders square to target, knees bent, back straight and leaning in, rifle stock placed high on your chest somewhere between your nipples, head low, offhand under the foregrip with your thumb across your barrel axis.
Don't ever hold onto a tactical grip as if you were giving it a handjob

The bladed stance has it's place, and thats when your clearing corners or shooting from behind cover.

The warfighter stance helps control full auto fire, offers the most amount of armor protection from enemy fire (by having your front plate exposed instead of your sides), and makes you very accurate in semi auto

It offers your enemy a bigger target, which in airsoft is a big disadvantage, but if your skilled with your rifle enough, like I am, the advantage in accuracy makes you REALLY deadly
ThunderCactus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2010, 15:37   #9
FOX_111
Le Roi des poissons d'avril
 
FOX_111's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Terrebonne, Québec
Obtain and watch the Magpul Dynamic DVDs. What is shown in there is quite enjoyable and you can mimic it in airsoft. Some of the tips in there also apply to the game, like drills and communication.

But on subject, the weapon manipulation is great for starters.
__________________

Vérificateur d'âge: Terrebonne
FOX_111 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2010, 16:12   #10
Huron
GabeGuitarded
 
Huron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toronto, ON
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOX_111 View Post
Obtain and watch the Magpul Dynamic DVDs. What is shown in there is quite enjoyable and you can mimic it in airsoft. Some of the tips in there also apply to the game, like drills and communication.

But on subject, the weapon manipulation is great for starters.
+1. I was going to mention that too. Those videos really helped me learn good habits with weapon handling, especially since I don't have RS experience.
__________________
Quote:
The war between the sexes is over. We won the second women started doing pole dancing for exercise.
Huron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 17th, 2010, 16:32   #11
Oborous
 
Oborous's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Edmonton, AB
My experience is strong elbow in, but for slightly different reasons than posted here.

The elbow in allows you to use bone to 'rest' the weight of the rifle, it's not using muscle to hold the gun up as if you were 'chicken-winging'. The chicken wing (strong elbow out) is what many people find more natural, but it fatigues you. Like mentioned above, somethings are hunting based, some are LE based, and some are Mil based. If you're having to keep your weapon at ready for extended periods of time, then you tire and get sloppy.

The squaring to the target (i.e. squared front plate for maximum armor) or offset starts arguments from what I've seen. Basically it ended up being what would allow you to accurately shoot quickly. You cannot shoot fast enough to afford to miss, but if you're making every shot an "X", then you're not shooting fast enough. Hitting the kill zone with your shots is most important, not placing rounds for a clean IPSC/IDPA/3-gun shoot.

If someone starts ranting about the above, ask them how they shoot pistol. If your TTP is to square up against the target, but you're shooting pistol in a weaver stance, haven't you just comprimised your principles?

Also, how often are you going to be out in the open blazing away at someone? Hopefully you're behind cover or taking a knee. If you're in the open, then you have a buddy behind cover that should be engaging the target while you complete your movement. Complete your movement, then engage. This is important to consider, because if you're squaring up perfectly, are you going to be doing that behind cover? Maybe. Shooting on a square range is not shooting in a dynamic environment.

I'm told waving your gun around (i.e. not moving your head, moving your whole body) was an '80's thing. Moving just your head is much faster and doesn't have something in the foreground (i.e. your rifle) also moving against the background. It's also a great deal more fatiguing.

Part of this is 'what are you actually going to do in SHTF scenarios', try running with your kit, then having someone yell at you while doing some drills. Are you sloppier, you betcha, are you still in the same stance, maybe.

You can overthink this. You're trying to shoot the target and not being shot yourself. Shooting is not going to be clean like on a range, there is going to be rubble on the ground, you're going to be shot at while the bad guy is behind cover, you're going to try and get cover or concealment.
Oborous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2010, 22:41   #12
SnipersVenom
 
SnipersVenom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Barrie, Ont
Send a message via MSN to SnipersVenom
lol dont forget the explosions on the other side of your cover that'll mess ya up, as for stance and holding in my experience, its bin stated above no need to beat a dead horse i find alot has to do with armour and also if your in a urban enviroment having your arm chicken wing out to the side is just asking to get smashed off a door way.
__________________
SnipersVenom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2010, 12:48   #13
wind953
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Vancouver, BC
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderCactus View Post
Don't ever hold onto a tactical grip as if you were giving it a handjob
Oh and also this. I hold it with my thumb pointing in the same direction as the barrel too, and wrap my other fingers around the grip. It's as if I am holding the gun like I normally do when there's no foregrip, but someone stuffed a foregrip onto there while I'm holding the gun. But I have no idea how the "handjob" thing is bad? Like m102404's earlier post in his "leaning forward" pics of the troops. You see pretty much all of them holding the foregrip in the "handjob" way. These are professional troops. How can they be "doing it wrong" if you're saying the "handjob" way is doing it wrong?

Last edited by wind953; February 19th, 2010 at 12:54..
wind953 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2010, 12:51   #14
FOX_111
Le Roi des poissons d'avril
 
FOX_111's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Terrebonne, Québec
It's more confortable that way. And at close range, it work well on static targets.
__________________

Vérificateur d'âge: Terrebonne
FOX_111 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 19th, 2010, 12:57   #15
wind953
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Vancouver, BC
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOX_111 View Post
It's more confortable that way. And at close range, it work well on static targets.
So it's just a matter of subjective comfort? Nothing to do with incorrect operation causing errors in performance?
wind953 is offline   Reply With Quote
ReplyTop


Go Back   Airsoft Canada > Discussion > Tactics, Techniques and Procedures

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Airsoft Canada
https://www.replicaairguns.ca/airsoft

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:49.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.