Gathering basic information...

[Surnia]

Good Evening ASC!

First thing's first, to the admins/mods: I actually don't know if I have another account on ASC. About 7-9 years ago I did a lot of searching on sports to invest into and I don't know if I made an account to lurk with. Will there be repercussions related to having multiple accounts if I don't remember if another exists? Any way to check? Thanks!

Moving on...
You have been warned, this will be a wall of text!


Been paintballing for a while now, but most of the people I went with have moved on to Airsoft, or throwing sticks with larger sticks (Archery). As much fun as archery is though, it's more of a relaxing/endurance sport rather than a PvP sport.

Just as a frame of reference, my paintball loadout was:
- VForce Profiler
- 10 "pod" harness
- Deadlywind barrel + brass "freak" style inserts
- Stock Class CCI Phantom, 10 round feed with dropout changer.
I have my setup tuned to pinpoint shots out to 70 feet, with one or two shots (no sight installed). I absolutely dislike high ROF, I get very little enjoyment (actually I find it a bit frustrating/annoying) from shooting one target with many shots. I walk onto the field with 100 rounds, or less, and enough gas supply to shoot maybe 200-250 at best.


I've begun looking into Airsoft, and was hoping there were some basic questions I could have some help with. I've done some basic searches here on ASC and google in general, but Airsoft's a lot harder to find information for... I hope I'm not breaking the rules by asking for some shopping advice (NOT gun related, will play a few games first to get a feel before getting AVed).

To start with, I'm probably going to join my uncle the next time he heads out with his buddies for Airsoft. First thing I'm probably going to hunt for is protective gear (as tempting as it is to grab a gun immediately, safety first). I've managed to dig out information on the primary recommendations: ESS NVG/Profile, Smith Optics OTW or Boogie, Revision Desert Locust or Exoshields. I am asian so I'm definitely considering the Asian fit designs, but I was wondering do Airsoft fields carry the variety of goggles to test both regular and asian fit, for... fit? To start with I'll probably grab the Smith Boogies or Exoshield before moving into a frame/lens setup for cost reasons but I'd like to see if I'll run into gaps around the nose.

*edit* Forgot to ask about the ESS AVS Influx. Saw that on the products page, but there's next to no information online in regards to reviews. Anyone have information about them? The theory that you can use the tab to increase airflow seems rather appealing when the main point of discussion is fogging with all other goggle based systems without fans, and it seems to be an alternative airflow design to the Smith Optics Regulators.

Related to above, will mesh masks also be easily found at fields for purchase/rent?


As a paintballer, I played stock class (CCI Phantom!). For those who don't know, it means you run on a marker with 10-15 rounds loaded at max, NO gravity feed (rock and cock), you manually cycle the bolt with a pump, and you use 12g CO2 as your primary gas source. I absolutely loved the low profile, high efficiency, and lightweight playstyle it offered (100 paintballs could easily last me 3 hours of play, since my max rate of fire was probably 1 round a second with the accuracy of a single shotgun pellet). I REALLY like the L96 stock design, but the weight is probably going to be above what I like to use in more compact situations (fully loaded my phantom probably weighs less than the rental steel HPA tanks at most fields). I do eventually want to grab a sniper rifle though (surprise, newb wanting a sniper!), but I will back my reasoning with the fact that I DO like low volume, high precision play. I AM used to running around, and relocating. The L96 will probably happen down the line, once I get used to Airsoft.

For that reason, SMGs and most rifles don't interest me too much. I like low volume of fire, and compact (profile) play. I also don't like how the M16 and related rifles look (sorry!). AKs are too visually imbalanced for me. One exception to the rule is the P90. I love the theory behind it (bullpup config, plus super compact), but would like to handle one prior to making a decision. Based on quick web searches I'm finding the only two I might get access to in Canada are the G&G and the Tokyo Marui variants. I don't want (or need) specific retailer information, but are they reasonably easy to find to see how comfortable they are, or make comparisons for how the builds feel? Generally, I'm more interested on how easy or difficult it might be to acquire one in the future.

More than likely though if I do start investing into the sport, I'll be going with a pistol first due to my preferences in play (low RoF, compact, lightweight, low capacity), and being a functional secondary gun when I grab a larger primary (...probably an L96, or a P90. Or both.). I don't really like how big and chunky the 1911 is, and they appear to be very easy to find (my uncle also has one, so that'll be rather easy to try). I'm much more of a fan of the Sig P226's aesthetics and grip shape, and will likely settle on a Tokyo Marui. I don't have issues with the other brands, but I do like the larger overall support for aftermarket parts (upgrading, or replacements), and the generally high recommendations their GBB pistols have. Similar to above, I don't want (or need) specific retailer information, but are they reasonably easy to find to test fit/feel?

If anyone's made it here, thanks for reading that wall of text. I have a habit of researching something in depth, before I actually delve into things... Being prepared and whatnot before getting my feet wet.

I greatly appreciate any help!
- Surnia

[devbro]

Look up posts that i started. Someone gave a very well plan and details as to how get a pistol and game some najor suggestions.

[ThunderCactus]

I've never heard anyone describe a 1911 as being "big and chunky". Are you sure you're talking about the right pistol? lol
Anyway they suck in airsoft since they use single stack mags. Not enough gas capacity.

Read the "how airsoft guns work" thread.
In short;
don't use silicone lube anywhere but gas gun seals
barrel length means nothing
barrel bore is largely inconsequential if you're not shooting much
barrel quality is everything
the hop rubber is most of your range and accuracy
heavier and higher quality BBs are the key to shooting accurately to 300ft

the only thing bolt action rifles have over AEGs/GBBRs/HPA as an advantage is usually being allowed higher muzzle energy, which means heavier ammo and a bit more range.
They're potential for accuracy isn't actually higher unless you're running heavier ammo.

[Surnia]

Originally Posted by devbro

Look up posts that i started. Someone gave a very well plan and details as to how get a pistol and game some najor suggestions.

Thanks, took a look at it! I've already considered points 1, 2, and 4 in that post and just need to get an idea how well point 3 works out for the P226 variants.

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

I've never heard anyone describe a 1911 as being "big and chunky". Are you sure you're talking about the right pistol? lol
Anyway they suck in airsoft since they use single stack mags. Not enough gas capacity.

...I'm not sure why, it just looks big and chunky to me. Length of barrel overhang in front of the trigger, grip shape... The proportions make it look weird and chunky to me.

I have weird aesthetic tastes.

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

Read the "how airsoft guns work" thread.
In short;
don't use silicone lube anywhere but gas gun seals
barrel length means nothing
barrel bore is largely inconsequential if you're not shooting much
barrel quality is everything
the hop rubber is most of your range and accuracy
heavier and higher quality BBs are the key to shooting accurately to 300ft

- Checked out the physics thread, was interesting. Are ported cylinders found normally, or is it more of an aftermarket upgrade thing? Different mentality to paintball where you want low pressure to prevent the paint from popping...
- I gathered that most internal seals are standard rubber since the propane additives (the GunGas stuff from AI) are Silicone oil, would the lube have issues with most plastic frames? I have Air tool oil that I use for my Phantom, safe for airsoft frames?
- Decently well versed with round-projectile-pushed-by-gas physics from paintball (LAPCO tests showed 10.75" as optimal, ported at 11" for airflow; Phantom stock barrels are stepped and fluted internally at the last 1-2" for smoothing air/sound properties; Freak style inserts are only 6" long, then the rest of the barrels are for airflow stability/noise suppression via porting) so I can definitely understand the need for optimal barrel length. Beyond stabilizing a BB at 1.5-3", is there a known length for AEGs where they're optimized? Granted the end goals with efficiency in paintball vs airsoft are different (paintball you optimize for shot count since the ammo is always the same, and there is a hard FPS limit), I can understand if no one's bothered or cared to find out.
- Will look into hop up rubber down the line, definitely. Stock TM rubber is supposed to be decent though, right?
- The talk of Bio BBs, are some/most considered higher quality for accuracy purposes? Just found the ASC thread on Bioshot and going through the test data.

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

the only thing bolt action rifles have over AEGs/GBBRs/HPA as an advantage is usually being allowed higher muzzle energy, which means heavier ammo and a bit more range.
Their potential for accuracy isn't actually higher unless you're running heavier ammo.

Range is nice, but I fully understand that be it AEG/Sniper/Pistol, the range maximums are pretty close when the ammo is the same. I just like the way the L96 looks, and it fits well with my general playstyle (minus being compact). In the case of general accuracy though, I take it that a certain level of volume fire is almost always required to hit someone? On the level of the pistol I'm not expecting perfect accuracy and will take some volume of fire.

[Ricochet]

I've owned two L96 rifles, one was a top end gas rifle and the other a top end spring rifle, both upgraded fully. Both ended up "meh", and not enjoyable to field really. Yes they look better, but performance over aesthetics every time. That being said, some rifles have aftermarket stocks you can buy to change the look a bit, or custom made work is also a thing.

1911 guns are quite slim.

Big: Desert Eagle, MK23 Socom, FN 5/7

Medium: USP, P226, PX4, M9

Small: 1911, PPK, most compacts

[Red Dot]

Honestly best thing is to play quite a few games and feel a few guns on the field. I have yet to see a player not lend another player their rifle prior to a game starting... honestly in a couple of walk-in days hopefully you get to try a little bit of everything and that will help immensely in narrowing down options.

I always recommend an AEG rifle to start, especially something in the AR15 (M4 etc) realm for several reasons. Everyone has or did own one, the version 2 gearbox arguably has the most parts available and magazines will be plentiful in games (run out of ammo? np buddy will toss you his mag to keep you in the game). Also electric is way cheaper to get into than gas.

That will more then get your feet wet in the hobby and allow you to see what other creations you want to add to your arsenal as time ticks on. I started with a gun 2 years ago now I have 7.... :/

[Surnia]

Originally Posted by Ricochet

I've owned two L96 rifles, one was a top end gas rifle and the other a top end spring rifle, both upgraded fully. Both ended up "meh", and not enjoyable to field really. Yes they look better, but performance over aesthetics every time. That being said, some rifles have aftermarket stocks you can buy to change the look a bit, or custom made work is also a thing.

Were they a bit big/long to work with? Or just the internals not that great?
I was under the impression that at least the TM L96 ran the same internals (or similar) as the VSR-10, so it was mainly a shell difference.

Originally Posted by Ricochet

1911 guns are quite slim.

Big: Desert Eagle, MK23 Socom, FN 5/7

Medium: USP, P226, PX4, M9

Small: 1911, PPK, most compacts

Surprised the 5/7 is big, I thought the cartridge is supposed to be small? unless the round capacity in the real thing is huge.

I've seen that the 1911 is slimmer due to the single stack, but side profiles are larger. I think that's what throws it off for me.

I've seen your posts a few times in the Sig P226 threads where you say the TM P226 is the P226, opinions on the E2 version? Supposed to have updated the pistol with things they learned from the P226 design, but I lost the video reference...

Originally Posted by Red Dot

Honestly best thing is to play quite a few games and feel a few guns on the field. I have yet to see a player not lend another player their rifle prior to a game starting... honestly in a couple of walk-in days hopefully you get to try a little bit of everything and that will help immensely in narrowing down options.

I always recommend an AEG rifle to start, especially something in the AR15 (M4 etc) realm for several reasons. Everyone has or did own one, the version 2 gearbox arguably has the most parts available and magazines will be plentiful in games (run out of ammo? np buddy will toss you his mag to keep you in the game). Also electric is way cheaper to get into than gas.

That will more then get your feet wet in the hobby and allow you to see what other creations you want to add to your arsenal as time ticks on. I started with a gun 2 years ago now I have 7.... :/

That's a very different mentality I think from paintball, most people don't lend. I should be headed to a field with my uncle next week, so I'll see how it goes from there!

I can see why AEG is way cheaper than gas (I shoot 12g CO2 in paintball afterall), but I'm doing a bit of research on the electrics on those first. MOSFETs, power systems, motors, gearboxes....

Thanks guys!

[Skeletor]

If you prefer low volume of fire have you considered a DMR platform? M14, SR-25, etc. Most fields limit DMRs to semi auto only, limit to certain models (usually based on 7.62x51 or similar) and depending on the field you may be entitled to a higher muzzle velocity.

Just that starting out as a sniper usually means wasted money/quitting the sport for newcomers. Make the sniper rifle your vanity/side project gun rather than the one you run around the woods with.

[BioRage]

Ok, did not read it all, but got some highlighted points from skimming it. I also came over from paintball after I was done back in 2006 (Angel 05 / A1 / PM6) where my lovely guns back then,

Anyways, note my info may be totally not related to what you wrote

- You made the right choice coming over from Paintball, because 4000 rounds of bb's are $15-20 bucks, as opposed to 2000 paintballs are $100-150
- As suggested, try out Siege Airsoft for a few indoor games, see what you like
- Top brands
--> for Gas blow back Pistols (GBBP); Tokyo Maru
--> for Auto Electric Guns (AEG): VFC
--> Gas blow back rifle (GBBR): GHK, Tokyo Marui MWS, KWA MP7/MP9

- People do not recommend you start off with a sniper as your first gun, you should do that later in a build.
- The best bet in my opinion is to get a M4, and make a stubby version, look into their VR16 lines, affordable too.
--> you can build multiple uppers to have a DMR and CQB platform.
--> M4 has most parts to change it into whatever you like.


- There are some pistols you should avoid, i.e Marui 5'7, better look into the P226 as you mentioned, the G17, 1911, Hicapa, and their newer line up of pistols (USPC, HK45, M&P9)
--> E2 is the "newer" version with a slimmer grip then the traditional P226R (railed)

You can run your Vprofile until you can afford a better setup for goggles, I run two dye i4's atm, and they do not fog, surprisngly. Only other recommendation for goggles be fan ones from revision (desert locus) $$)

--> Go into a store, and ask to hold items ... toronto airsoft, airsoft depot, etc. see what you like, don't buy on impulse, do extensive research after you find something you like.

[Hectic]

Most of your points have been touched on. I will say as mentioned use your PB eyepro till you find what you like.
Get out to some games get some loaner or rental guns in hand see wht you like then buy.
And welcome!
Season opener at finch field this Saturday would he a good spot to check out gear and guns. Even if you just pop in to say hi and meet some folks.

[ThunderCactus]

Seals are usually natural rubber because its cheap. You can upgrade to buna nitrile though.
Gas gun you want air tool oil. Aegs you want a grease.
BioBBs are fine. Quality is everything and at $30 for 2500 of the best rounds im sure you wont complain lol
There's no "optimal" barrel length in terms of BB performance at range....
The major difference is that we control the volume and air pressure. Not necessarily separately, but because the air pressure changes, the optimal length also changes.
Ive got a 300mm barrel in my M14 and I can hit someone within 2 shots at 250ft.
Same deal with my Mk18 and at 250ft the only thing affecting accuracy is the wind.
In the 300ft+ range it takes more luck than skill with the wind to hit someone but ive gotten a kill at 350ft before and other people have gotten in the 350-400 range with bolt actions and heavy ammo (.36g and above)
At 400-420fps you'll be using .28 to .32g
Pistols can be finicky; my usp worked best on .32s, my m&p works best on .25s
But thats usually the hop rubber not being able to handle heavier ammo

[Ricochet]

Yes, L96 internals are very similar to the VSR, except the Hop-up is way worse (which is the main part) and the loading fin device can be problematic. Obviously the longer the gun, the more difficult to manage/wield, but that's a personal thing. Same goes for heavier versus lighter, but either you can make it work or you can't. Usually the shorter you are the more trouble longer guns will give you trouble. Sniper rifles are a huge cost versus time investment to be even worth to field and there's still a 95% chance we'll tuned AR's will beat you up. Even if you're stuck on a sniper rifle project, which is okay, it's 100% advisable to get yourself a solid AR platform first, so you always have a gun.

I didn't like the E2 version over the original. They don't seem to handle green gas as well and it becomes sluggish. Original style P226 will run for ten years most cases, without issue if you clean it/maintain it, etc.

1911 side profile is tricky. It's almost as wide front to back as an average 9mm, but not quite and they're much slimmer side to side.

Don't worry about your paintball style so much, as airsoft is typically a little different, so you'll have to acclimate one way or another. There's enough similarities though that you'll be alright.

[ThunderCactus]

Perfect example;
VSR-10 shooting 1.65j with .30s
12" grouping at 260ft, dead silent from 10ft

MK18 shooting 1.6j with .30s
12" grouping at 260ft, semi-auto, loud

M14 socom with suppressor
shooting 1.55j with .30s, semi auto, dead silent from 20ft

Like I said, the only benefit to bolt action is to get in a higher muzzle energy to run heavy rounds and shoot farther. But within typically 250ft, it's a level playing field against everyone else with a properly upgraded AEG.
So below 250ft, it's a handicap. But handicaps are fun. I'm just in the process of building my own M24 right now.

[Surnia]

Again I enjoy low volume play as I come from stock class in paintball (pump action, no "assisted" feeding), which is why I'm looking at DMR platforms. I do understand accuracy comes from different factors, I just like low fire rate with moderate to high accuracy!

Originally Posted by Skeletor

If you prefer low volume of fire have you considered a DMR platform? M14, SR-25, etc. Most fields limit DMRs to semi auto only, limit to certain models (usually based on 7.62x51 or similar) and depending on the field you may be entitled to a higher muzzle velocity.

Just that starting out as a sniper usually means wasted money/quitting the sport for newcomers. Make the sniper rifle your vanity/side project gun rather than the one you run around the woods with.

Thoroughly enjoy low volume fire, but definitely a vanity project. I like things without batteries, gas sources.. self contained gun that just needs ammo to fire is very appealing to me.

Trying to find some information on DMR setups, what are the usual platforms they're built on? The M14 looks nice, I read it uses V7 gearboxes? Seems to be a bit more difficult to find upgrades for them.
*edit* forgot to mention, The G36 looks decent as well. I do like the stock design on the G36V... Any opinions on that platform?

Originally Posted by Hectic

Most of your points have been touched on. I will say as mentioned use your PB eyepro till you find what you like.
Get out to some games get some loaner or rental guns in hand see wht you like then buy.
And welcome!
Season opener at finch field this Saturday would he a good spot to check out gear and guns. Even if you just pop in to say hi and meet some folks.

Thank you, and thank you for the invite! Finch Field is a bit far for the time being, but I'll definitely keep an eye out in the future.

Originally Posted by BioRage

Ok, did not read it all, but got some highlighted points from skimming it. I also came over from paintball after I was done back in 2006 (Angel 05 / A1 / PM6) where my lovely guns back then,

Anyways, note my info may be totally not related to what you wrote

- You made the right choice coming over from Paintball, because 4000 rounds of bb's are $15-20 bucks, as opposed to 2000 paintballs are $100-150

I ran stock class pump, paintball costs were negligible. The included 100 rounds when you sign up could last me 3 hours =D

Also meant I could never really purchase a case (or even a 500 round bag...) of higher quality paint... but eh.

Originally Posted by BioRage

- As suggested, try out Siege Airsoft for a few indoor games, see what you like

Most likely headed there next Friday!

Originally Posted by BioRage

- Top brands
--> for Gas blow back Pistols (GBBP); Tokyo Marui
--> for Auto Electric Guns (AEG): VFC
--> Gas blow back rifle (GBBR): GHK, Tokyo Marui MWS, KWA MP7/MP9

Was looking at VFC and krytac for fun (don't like the profile.. yes I'm weird), and the VFC avalon calibur CQC is the only one I'm really interested in.
Krytac trident mk2 CRB seems nice as well (mosfets from stock and so on), but eh, that same M4 ish body... Maybe I'll warm up to it in time.

Originally Posted by BioRage

- People do not recommend you start off with a sniper as your first gun, you should do that later in a build.
- The best bet in my opinion is to get a M4, and make a stubby version, look into their VR16 lines, affordable too.
--> you can build multiple uppers to have a DMR and CQB platform.
--> M4 has most parts to change it into whatever you like.

definitely down the line for a sniper build, probably going P226 -> P90 -> sniper. First two might rotate around depending on difficulty finding a P90.

Originally Posted by BioRage

- There are some pistols you should avoid, i.e Marui 5'7, better look into the P226 as you mentioned, the G17, 1911, Hicapa, and their newer line up of pistols (USPC, HK45, M&P9)
--> E2 is the "newer" version with a slimmer grip then the traditional P226R (railed)

You can run your Vprofile until you can afford a better setup for goggles, I run two dye i4's atm, and they do not fog, surprisngly. Only other recommendation for goggles be fan ones from revision (desert locus) $$)

--> Go into a store, and ask to hold items ... toronto airsoft, airsoft depot, etc. see what you like, don't buy on impulse, do extensive research after you find something you like.

Thanks for the pistol tips, will probably check out Toronto Airsoft due to its proximity to Siege and STC. Depot maybe when I have a bit more time (Works schedule is a bit funky)!

Originally Posted by Ricochet

Yes, L96 internals are very similar to the VSR, except the Hop-up is way worse (which is the main part) and the loading fin device can be problematic. Obviously the longer the gun, the more difficult to manage/wield, but that's a personal thing. Same goes for heavier versus lighter, but either you can make it work or you can't. Usually the shorter you are the more trouble longer guns will give you trouble. Sniper rifles are a huge cost versus time investment to be even worth to field and there's still a 95% chance we'll tuned AR's will beat you up. Even if you're stuck on a sniper rifle project, which is okay, it's 100% advisable to get yourself a solid AR platform first, so you always have a gun.

Still not very good with searching for airsoft terminology so I'm having a bit of issue finding the difference between the L96 and VSR hop up units. As far as I've been able to dig out, the L96 hop up is more cramped with tons of preloaded springs to lose; and found two mentions of actual performance problems vs the VSR. Is it the hop up arm doesn't apply enough pressure?

I knew about the weaker loading fin and found some early information on a metal upgrade to it, was it only Creation that made the aluminum fin?

Originally Posted by Ricochet

I didn't like the E2 version over the original. They don't seem to handle green gas as well and it becomes sluggish. Original style P226 will run for ten years most cases, without issue if you clean it/maintain it, etc.

So I finally ran into the difference between 134a and green gas.. Did not know there were initial problems in early TMs (and some later ones). I'm surprised that the E2 can't handle green gas as well as the earlier ones, do you happen to know if that applies to the current P226Rs? The web description for the P226R on Toronto Airsoft seems to indicate there was some update to it (and as far as I've been able to gather, the new E2 magazines work in both)

Originally Posted by Ricochet

1911 side profile is tricky. It's almost as wide front to back as an average 9mm, but not quite and they're much slimmer side to side.

Don't worry about your paintball style so much, as airsoft is typically a little different, so you'll have to acclimate one way or another. There's enough similarities though that you'll be alright.

Good to know, Thanks!

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

Perfect example;
VSR-10 shooting 1.65j with .30s
12" grouping at 260ft, dead silent from 10ft

MK18 shooting 1.6j with .30s
12" grouping at 260ft, semi-auto, loud

M14 socom with suppressor
shooting 1.55j with .30s, semi auto, dead silent from 20ft

Like I said, the only benefit to bolt action is to get in a higher muzzle energy to run heavy rounds and shoot farther. But within typically 250ft, it's a level playing field against everyone else with a properly upgraded AEG.
So below 250ft, it's a handicap. But handicaps are fun. I'm just in the process of building my own M24 right now.

My phantom never shot any further, nor more accurately than properly tuned shockers, angels, Cockers, ions, Tippmans, etc. (am I dating myself a bit with those markers? >_>). Definitely a handicap due to the low volume, but I like having the limited fire as it forces emphasis on shot placement. Yeah if someone rushed me and sprayed it was a bit of a disadvantage, but eh, part of the life as a stock class player. Pump is slightly faster than a bolt action, but I'm no stranger to just firing one or two rounds every few seconds on a field surrounded by double triggers and burst fire.

Absolutely love having someone fire ropes of paint, and taking them out with one >=)

[Red Dot]

By the way by lend I meant to let you fire a few rounds, maybe they'll let you play a game with it if their generous. 😊